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Author Topic: La Croix  (Read 20231 times)
Montana
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« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2007, 05:56:43 PM »

I don't care for "buyer beware," folks.  Now I'm not giving out a legal opinion here, but last I read a book on contracts, I do believe that deliberately concealing a known defect is called FRAUD.

And I 100% and then some back the notion of putting genetic status on registration papers when it can be determined through DNA testing. 

And no, I will not point my finger solely at Lasma.  But there is NO question that the genetic diseases have been known for at least 40-50 years.  Even by the 80's, it was realized that they were hereditary.  One of these days I must scan and upload the article by a vet who, in 1967, said the Arabian industry had its head in the sand about genetic disorders!

I point to the big breeders (naming no names; there are too many) because they KNEW enough, even if not as much as today.  And instead of facing it, they hid it -- all but SCID which had a nasty habit of waiting 4-5 months before the foal died.  And even then, how many of us remember the various people (naming no names here) who said, "oh that foal wasn't SCID, it just died of pneumonia."  Well, yes it died of pneumonia, because it had NO IMMUNE SYSTEM!!!

But as for the LaCroix crowd.  Here's what's public record:

Stockman v. La Croix, 790 F.2d 584 (7th Cir. 1986)
(Ray's father in law sues Gene)  Legally boring statute of limitations case, but fact-wise, it outlines the twists and turns and other shenanigans.  Public record:
http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:Drk_X5EZ8dkJ:bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/ca07/790.F2d.584.85-2664.html+Stockman+v.+LaCroix,+790+F.2d+584&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

Vanier v. Ponsoldt, 251 Kan. 88, 833 P.2d 949 (Kansas, 1992)
Case involving *Lech's sale as a yearling with OCD (he is a miracle story all by himself, poor boy:  http://www.ryanarabians.net/legend.htm)  This is the case where LaCroix was in a booth, secretly bidding up the horse.  Public record, summary at: http://www.kentuckylaw.com/index.php?b=equine_law_case_topic_01

And then there was
J.P. Morgan Del. v. Onyx Arabians II, Ltd., 825 F. Supp. 146  (Ky, 1993) which is mostly financial wrangling over Strike and a couple other horses.  Can't find a link to a free source on this one, but basically it was a breach of contract case. 

All were complex legal issues, Lasma won some, lost some, but the fact patterns read like Peyton Place and the point is that reported cases are cases where people are either in federal court and/or appealing a lower court ruling.  There were other cases, I am sure, some probably settled.

Maybe people can ride, but there's more to human character than just one thing.  That's my point.
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« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2007, 06:41:40 PM »

But Montana, you are right in so many things but the original post, lost in way back there, was about them as teachers/riders....I think!  I believe the lady was looking for training/riding instruction.  She wasn't looking for a horse or breeding.  She might be all right if that's the case. Wink
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« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2007, 07:39:32 PM »

All of the business dealing aside, there are very few people that have ever had or will ever have the God given talent to ride/train a horse that Gene has. 
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« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2007, 06:21:36 AM »

But Montana, you are right in so many things but the original post, lost in way back there, was about them as teachers/riders....I think!  I believe the lady was looking for training/riding instruction.  She wasn't looking for a horse or breeding.  She might be all right if that's the case. Wink

Well would you want a teacher/rider who abuses?  My trainer whom I use on occasion was working for them in the "hey day" and was a "student/groom" of theirs.  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXedited for contentXXXXXXXXXXX.  Enough said...

Those are some pretty harsh words.  Not something I would throw out there without absolute positive proof.  Not saying whether it's true or not but still some pretty tough words.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 10:32:57 AM by forum_moderator1 » Logged

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arabsRgreat
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« Reply #49 on: December 14, 2007, 06:35:26 AM »



Those are some pretty harsh words.  Not something I would throw out there without absolute positive proof.  Not saying whether it's true or not but still some pretty tough words.
I realize that and I've bit my tongue thru this whole thread; but finally I could keep quiet no longer.  I trust this person who was in the barn at the time or I'd never propogate gossip; which I guess it is since I wasn't there first hand.  I'm just so sick of the whole abuse stuff going on I guess I'm getting a bit like "the other" board.  Maybe they've seen the error of their ways and no longer abuse. Dunno; all we can do is hope.  Quite frankly the OP should go take a few lessons and see how it goes and make up his/her own mind.  But beware you may not always see the "bad"  As I mentioned in another post I first hand saw a BNT abuse a horse in his own barn and on another board his praises are sung repeatedly by some clients.  Now either what they've seen they don't consider abuse and I would or they've never seen it.  All abusers don't abuse all horses. 
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« Reply #50 on: December 14, 2007, 08:20:49 AM »

 
Quote
All of the business dealing aside, there are very few people that have ever had or will ever have the God given talent to ride/train a horse that Gene has.  Georgine

Darn, Georgine, I hate to rain on your parade, but I disagree on the "talent" issue.  The reason I disagree is that a person with the "God-given talen" is a person who does not use cruelty, intimidation, immoral practices, cheating, etc., etc.   

An example of cheating is when, on the way to one of our past Nationals, a trainer and judge for this National Show were sitting at a table in a restaurant having breakfast and discussing a "deal" for this trainer's success at this show.  The daughter of a well-known breeding ranch was also on the way to that Nationals and happen to be sitting at the next table and overheard the entire conversation.  Apparently neither the trainer nor the judge recognized her or else just missed seeing her. 

 Trainer won everything entered that year.  This kind of a "win" record means absolutely nothing.  Kinda like the steroid problem with today's baseball record holders which brings the validity of some of those records into question.  Did the daughter turn the trainer and judge in?  No...it would have been one person's word against the 2 guilty parties' word.   

No, IMHO, "talent" with horses dismisses all those that play games to get the wins.  I saw Gene ride from the time he was about 10 or 11.  Yes, he could ride fairly well, but  little Miss Cindy Butler was a far better rider and beat him every class.   Bottom line, one doesn't have to play games if one possess great talent.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 03:36:45 PM by lorry » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: December 14, 2007, 10:44:25 AM »

Unfortunately this thread is being considered for removal.  Some of the posts have been borderline off and on throughout and although I had hoped it could continue some posts are really starting to get out of hand.

If this thread continues in this direction I will have no choice but to remove it.

The various topics are still open for discussion if this thread is closed down or removed, but they need to continue in a manner that does not violate the TOS.

Best regards,

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« Reply #52 on: December 14, 2007, 11:36:17 AM »

forum moderator............... ....thank you
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arabsRgreat
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« Reply #53 on: December 14, 2007, 12:05:37 PM »

I want to apologize to anyone I offended.  I did not realize I crossed the line.  Now I will be starting another thread on the "big hairs".  LOL!  Just kidding!  Live and learn.
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Montana
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« Reply #54 on: December 14, 2007, 02:12:40 PM »

I will watch my own language, but public record is public record.  If some people are offended, well, what's factual is what's factual.  Would we "bleep" out information on someone who currently was suspended by the USEF or something?  I certainly would hope not. 

The people on these boards who have opposing views are valuable, and sometimes both sides do have a point.  I saw Gene ride *Elkana, she was a lovely mare, did a lovely job.  He wouldn't win an equitation class, but he obviously knows how to stay on a horse. 

Laurie dear, I think that minor post patrolling is really all that is needed.  It's OK to warn us to behave, but sometimes things need to be aired out as well.

I think that part of what is wrong with the industry today is that there was too much secrecy in the past.  Secrecy works both ways, it harms the reputations of those who are innocent and cannot defend themselves from gossip but dismissing real allegations as mere "gossip" allows the "guilty" to act with impunity.

I say, let the light shine and let's see what happens.

I am very serious about this.  The Arabian industry so far is not where the Tennessee Walkers are -- i.e. under the microscope of a Federal Law regulating their practices and still in total denial about it -- but we do have a denial problem and a secrecy problem that is not for the good of the horses we love.  I for one have been positively appalled at the decline in soundness and working quality of our horses over the last 20 years and, no matter where the finger points, the bottom line is that the go-go 80's and money means everything period was what got it started.
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« Reply #55 on: December 14, 2007, 03:28:20 PM »


Laurie dear, I think that minor post patrolling is really all that is needed.  It's OK to warn us to behave, but sometimes things need to be aired out as well.


While I appreciate your suggestion at what my role on these forums should be limited to, unfortunately I have others to answer to and that includes the other members of this Forum.

I always try to encourage forum members to continue their discussions in any and all debates and I very strongly resent any implication that says otherwise.

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« Reply #56 on: December 14, 2007, 03:49:24 PM »

Sorry Laurie, not meaning to step on your toes or tell you how to do your job.  You have your rules. 

However, I just browsed the "help" menu and I am having difficulty locating the TOS page.  If you feel we need to review it, or are violating it, would you be so kind as to post a link to it?  I quite sincerely cannot locate it.

I am sure that it says things about not allowing defamatory material, etc., and that is, of course, appropriate, but as long as we don't cuss, curse, stick to the truth, and (in my case) avoid commentary on the state of anyone's eternal soul, I don't see anything on this thread that crosses those lines, though, of course, I don't know about EVERYTHING that was "bleeped."

Seriously, I am all for appropriate reminders but I don't like vagueness. 

I also am assuming that you will of course hold a thread titled "LaCroix" to the EXACT same standard you hold a thread titled, hmmm, let's say "lookit THIS stupid BYB!"  If someone says on such a thread, "this BYB is a crook and beats her horses, look here where she got sued" can I assume the same warnings about deleting the entire thread will apply?

Fair is fair, right?  Wink

arabsRgreat, the big hairs won't be nearly as much fun, as when the AHA web site got switched over, they took down the pages they had on the big court case, including the play by play and the court decision, and I won't be able to find free links to that one unless the county courthouse has their stuff online!  Smiley
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« Reply #57 on: December 14, 2007, 04:01:39 PM »


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« Reply #58 on: December 14, 2007, 04:02:54 PM »

RE: I don't know about EVERYTHING that was "bleeped."


You're right.  You don't.  Enough said.
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« Reply #59 on: December 14, 2007, 04:13:02 PM »

I also am assuming that you will of course hold a thread titled "LaCroix" to the EXACT same standard you hold a thread titled, hmmm, let's say "lookit THIS stupid BYB!"  If someone says on such a thread, "this BYB is a crook and beats her horses, look here where she got sued" can I assume the same warnings about deleting the entire thread will apply?



All threads and topics are dealt with in the same manner (as they have in the past while I've been here) no matter who or what the subject is.  You have been on these forums long enough to know me better then that.




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